Tokugawa Corporate Forums

Hi Everyone,

Since my last question, I decided to go ahead and jump in to get my first PC-9801 computer. Don't have it on hand yet but is currently being shipped. I decided initially to go with a PC-9801Do since it seemed to have two processors including a Z80 for playing PC-8801 games, of which I have quite a few originals. I figure that this might cover most of my PC-8801 needs and "half" of my PC-9801 needs since it would only play 5 inch FDDs. I would still need another hardware model to support my other PC-9801/PC-9821 games that are on mediums other than 5 Inch Floppies.

Ideally, I'm looking for a desktop model that would either contain 2 x 3.5 FDD drives at least, with an easy hookup for installing an internal CD-Rom, or one that has both 2 x 3.5 FDD and a CD-Rom. So far I've found one model that really seems to be ideal for this, which is the PC-9821CE series, or CE2 specifically, but I'm just not sure if it will do what I would like it to, so I wanted to make sure first by asking you all here.

If I were to get a CE2 or if anyone else has recommendations as well, what would be best for playing the following games:

Revival Xanadu - CD Version - (says it can run on 286/386/486)
Revival Xanadu 2 Remix - CD Version - (says it can run on 286/386/486)
Brandish 3: Spirit of Balcan - 3.5 inch disks (says it can run on 286/386/486)
Brandish Renewal - CD version (says it can run on 286/386/486)
Brandish VT - CD version (says it can run on 286/386/486)
Brandish 4 - CD version for Windows 95/98 ? Is this even possible?
Sorcerian Forever - CD version for Windows 95 ? Is this even possible?

PC-8801

Xak: The Art of Visual Stage - PC-8801 version 3.5 inch disks via a 98 machine using a PC88 emulator.
Xak II: Rising of the Red Moon - PC-8801 version 3.5 inch disks via a 98 machine using a PC88 emulator.

Thanks very much for your time! Any advice you all can give me is much appreciated! : )



-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

The Ce/Ce2 models are good all-around machines, but not all of them have 2 floppy drives.
You can probably just barely install Windows 95 on a Ce, but it will be slow. Forget about Windows 98.
Emulating Xak might also be a problem - for PC88SR you ideally want a 100 MHz processor or better.

I see, thanks very much for pointing that out, Kobushi. That's not something I would have thought about. I guess I'll keep looking for some other models and options. Are the any that you might recommend I look into to play most of these games without issue while still being quick enough to run Windows 95 and the PC88SR emulator?

Even if the solution involves only having a model with either 2 x 3.5 FDD drives and having to buy a CD-Rom optical disk drive later, or one that has CD-Rom and only one 3.5 Disk. Just looking for some all around good models to look for.

Thanks very much for your time, I've been reading a lot of your posts about the PC98 Kobushi and they've all been very informative. : )

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

Unfortunately, later PC-9821 models have a lot of compatibility problems with older games. I think a Ce2 is an excellent choice, especially the 2xFDD models. The Ce2 also uses an IDE bus, so adding/replacing a CD drive is pretty easy.

As for Brandish 4 and Sorcerian Forever, if they are really for Windows 95 then you don't need a PC-9801... you could just run them in a VM or grab any old IBM-compatible PC and install Japanese Win95.

Xak *might* work on a Ce2 with P88SR, it just depends on how accurate the emulation needs to be. If you tweak P88SR you might be able to find a sweet spot that is accurate enough for the game but not overwhelming for the Ce2's processor. In fact, you could test it in np21 or T98 Next - set the processor to 25 MHz to mimic the Ce2 and then run P88SR+Xak (emulator inside an emulator).

PS - that is one crazy shelf. Is there any Falcom game you don't have?

Great! So I I should keep the Ce2 as a good option since some models have pretty much everything I would need to get started with older PC-9800/9821 gaming and would cover the formats I need. Also, I just managed to get a Dual external 5" inch FDD drive with SCSI connectors I beleive, so it would be great to be able to have a model that would support SCSI as well.

Dual 5" FDD Front | Dual 5" FDD Back

The only thing that is kind of a let down about this particular model is that it is only 25mhz. I will definitely try emulating PC-88 inside a PC-98 emulator with the settings you've suggest soon.

One other model that interests me the PC-9821Cx series, specifically the PC-9821Cx3 as it seems to have pretty much everything I would need except that I would need to hook up an external 3.5 inch FDD drive to it, but the fact that it is 100mhz seems like I could do more with it, but would this be still pretty compatible with older PC-98 titles if I went with this model?

Oh and I'm a huge Falcom and Xak fan, so I'm trying to one day see if I can get every Falcom and Xak title in every PC format. I'm getting closer! Only ones I'm defintiely missing are Dragon Slayer and DragonSlayer 4 and plenty of Sorcerian titles/expansions. I'm sure there are others too! Can never have enough Falcom! : ) You can see I'm a big Xanadu fan too, so I'm especially excited to finally be able to play the CD versions of Revival Xanadu and Revival Xanadu 2 Remix. Would I have any issues playing these CD-Roms on a Ce2 model or Cx series model?

Thanks for your time,

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

Hmm... I think you'll run into problems with the Cx3 (aka CanBe model). NEC switched to a different graphics chip starting in Nov 1994 IIRC, which causes problems. Also, around this time NEC switched to WSS (Windows Sound System), which breaks many games. You can mostly resolve this by buying a PC-9801-86 sound board, but another forum member has a CanBe and he said that there is no slot available for an 86 board. Basically, once Windows 95 came out NEC redesigned the PC-9821 series specifically to run Windows, and many DOS games stopped working.

If I were you, I would go for the Ce2 and just install MS-DOS on it. And don't worry about the 25 MHz on the Ce2 - that is plenty for most games. Should be great for the Falcom stuff.

As for the external SCSI drives, I think you can connect them to most PC98 models as long as you have a SCSI interface board such as the PC-9801-55.


Me too . Your collection is on a whole other level than mine, but I think I have every version of the Gagharv trilogy - even the crappy Playstation ports!


Revival Xanadu 1/2 will have zero problems on a Ce2.

Thanks very much for your help Kobushi, your advice has been a lot of help to me in choosing the best system to fit my gaming needs/tastes.
I also saw some previous forum posts as well where you had helped a user named Yukin as well, really good advice there too. Learned a lot from those as well, but I think in Yukin's case he might not have been looking for a model with CD-Rom and I think he decided to get a PC9800FS which I looked into at first and almost decided on, seemed like a nice model. I've seen Yukin around at ALOY or Ancient Land of Ys a few times which is where my main home is on he net, so it was interesting to see his posts.

I decided to go ahead and get the model Ce2 that I was looking at earlier. Not sure if it's a "great" price, but it's a lot cheaper than the one that was going for 22,000 yen without any images showing it being tested. Says that is pre-formatted with Dos, so I'm not exactly sure what that means but I guess I'll figure it out... haha. ^_^;;

PC-9821Ce2

Looks to be in pretty decent condition, with a little yellowing in the front that I might be able to correct using a Retr0Bright formula, the FDD drive were tested, and the CD-Rom untested.

There's always a chance that when it gets shipped to where I live in America, that it might not work, but I guess I'm more or less willing to take that risk since I'm really not sure how else to get these and so far since I've been successful with other auctions for other systems arriving safely, such as a Sharp Famicom Twin, NEC PC-Engine Duo RX, and a Panasonic FS-A1GT MSX turbo R using the service of Mail Order Japan. Crossing my fingers that the PC9801DO model arrives safe and sound as well.

PC9801DO

That one came with the original keyboard and I managed to find this little adapter too which seems to make a mouse port become a controller port for games:

Controller Adapter for PC9801DO

* I'm supposing that the type of controller that can be connected is the same type that an MSX, FM-Towns or Sega Master System would use, at least that's what it looks like from the pictures.

By the way, some other question I have baring that these two systems arrive in working order, are there places that you know of where you can order new drive belts that tend to be good fits for these types of 5" and 3.5" FDD drives? I sure hope they are easy to replace like the MSX FDD was... the Famicom Disk System Drive Belt was such a huge pain in the ass to change out... Had to correct the heads and everything... Took me hours and hours to get it working correctly....

Another thing I'm not entirely sure on is the installation of these PCI boards, from what I can see from the pictures of this auction in partcular for the Ce2, it's got some places where a few could fit in if I wanted to install them, but from what I've see in other models, I've not seen a clear view of just how or where the contacts of these PCI boards would actually connect to the motherboard. Is it pretty standard and something I'm just not seeing a good pic of?

Also it appears that the CE2 model has a SCSI port already on it, so if that's correct, that's very good news! Or it might just be a RS-232 port similar to what is on the PC9801DO. I've never had to use either SCSI or RS-232, so this will all be very new to me as a research project! : )

I'm not even sure what all can be connected to an RS-232 port. lol I just started reading the wikipedia page about it recently.

Oh and I'm "guessing" that a PS2/Mouse/Keyboard can be hooked up to the Ce2 model right? Or am I completely wrong about that? Would be good to know in case I need to look for that as well.

Thanks for reading through this and answering my questions, Kobushi, if and when you have the time that is.



Thats awesome! There are so many versions of the Gagharv trilogy out there, I've only have the popular edition re-released modern windows versions and the terrible English translated PSP versions... Such a shame. At least Trails in the Sky was treated well!

And great to hear that Revival Xanadu CD will work fine. Been waiting to play that for ages. I love me some Xanadu... for awhile I was even making a Xanadu game (Scenario IV) since a Japanese fan was already working on Scenario III:

Fan-Made Scenario Xanadu Scenario III

Fan-Made Xanadu Scenario IV: Roots of the World Tree

*Homage to Famicom Xanadu or "Faxanadu" since in that game you went up the tree into the branches, but in this you would go under the World Tree into the deepest darkest roots where the true evil lies! : 0

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

That seems like a good machine - has a ton of extra RAM, too. If the CD drive doesn't work you can just replace it with a generic IDE drive - not every drive will work, but many will.
BTW most PC98 floppy drives are beltless.


First of all it's not PCI, it's NEC's proprietary C-bus. There's an internal board sticking up perpendicular to the motherboard and attached to a supporting cage. You just slot in expansion boards from the back without opening the case. Pretty cool design, actually.



The Ce2 has both an RS-232 (serial) port and a **snip snip** parallel port labeled "Printer".


No, completely different. You'll need a PC98 keyboard and mouse.

Don't forget you'll also need a display capable of 24kHz horizontal frequency. Most modern displays only go down to 32kHz.


I would totally play that.

Ah, good to hear that this model had some extra ram in it to help it out, that the CD drive is easy to replace and that I might not have to deal with belts! : )

I see now, so they are referred to as C-Bus and the if I were to get a SCSI C-Bus Board such as the PC-9801-55 that you recommended, I could possibly use that as a full-on SCSI port that could then support the external FDD. I am referring to SCSI correctly right, in that it's the one shown in this photo here of the Dual 5 inch FDD drive right?

SCSI Port?

I guess I'm getting a little confused since that port, if it is SCSI, is a lot larger than the printer port shown and labeled on the PC-9801DO in this picture here, so I'm wondering if I'm dealing with two different sized SCSI devices... Hmm

PC-9801DO Back of case showing Printer Port

Any other recommendations as far as beneficial C-Bus boards to have installed in either the Ce2 or the DO?



Ah, good thing I asked about this... Hmm, I wonder if the PC-9801DO keyboard would work with the PC-9821Ce2 keyboard input. I've looked at many photos to try and tell, but I can't say for sure if the DO is different completely or proprietary as far as keyboards or a mouse goes.

Front of PC-9801DO showing Keyboard and Mouse input ports
* And what in the world is that odd red connector on the right next to the power button! Looks almost like a cartridge slot. : )



Yeah, I thought this might be a problem, but I wasn't real sure how to tackle it until after I try a few things. I have some very new monitors, some not so new monitors, a device that takes a VGA signal and outputs it to Video Composite-Cinch Connector to TV, and at worst, I have some very huge PC monitors from way back from when we had computers running only DOS, American computer models, but very old, none-the-less.

Guess I'll just need to research that a bit more unless there is a modern type that everyone here likes using that seems to do the trick. Preferably though, I'd love to just play these games on a sizable CRT television.



Me too! But not sure if that one will ever get off the ground again. I was developing all of the characters in a 3D program called Maya first to export it out via front/side/back views to be tiles we could use for the game.

Even got as far as making a small, but very rushed opening animation showing the hero Fieg exploring a cave underground, finding a treasure chest and seeing that there was nothing inside... but I never got a chance to tweak the animation or add in more frames when the project was more or less pulled and the programmer could no longer work on it. I'm an okay artist, but a terrible programmer! lol

Xanadu Scenaro IV Animation Demo

Right now, learning how to properly make sprites for MSX game development if I can.

Thanks again for all of your help! I've definitely leveled up in my PC-98 knowledge quite a bit since you've started answering these questions! I have a friend who will also likely want to know all of this information too that I'll share with her soon!

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

I was being stupid, the Printer port on the Ce2 is simply a parallel port (Centronics half-pitch 36-pin to be exact) and not SCSI at all. The Printer port on the back of the DO is a Centronics 14-pin. Unless you plan on printing something, just ignore them. You'll need a SCSI interface board to use that external FDD, which looks to have a Centronics 50-pin connector.


For games? Not really. You could get a MIDI board, but personally I greatly prefer FM synthesis. The Ce2 has a built-in YM2608 source and stereo speakers - just beautiful.


The DO accepts a standard PC98 keyboard and mouse, except it uses the older square mouse port (the Ce2 uses a newer round port identical to the keyboard port). If you look around you can probably find a mouse port adapter, or even make one yourself.
However, the DO had a special keyboard to handle both PC98 and PC88 modes, and if you use a regular PC98 keyboard in PC88 mode, certain keys such as the 88's PC key will be unavailable. This can be a problem depending on the software. Note this only affects PC88 software.


LOL that's not a connector, those are the jumper switches!


See here: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:combo
24kHz is not always supported though - some displays support 15kHz and then jump to 32kHz.

Ah, that makes more sense now, and nope I don't plan on getting all of this so that I can print anything. lol I picked up PC-9801-55 SCSI Board for now. That was one of the more in-expensive pieces so far, so that was good. : ) Are cables pretty standard, a SCSI, IDE, VGA (cable, I know you need an adapter for the 15-pin Sub-D RGB Analog to VGA) but I'm wondering if the cables themselves are pretty standard or if I should be importing those from Japan as well...


I feel that way as well, I have Midi capabilities with MSX turbo R, but I don't really use them. I prefer the original PSG and FM sounds. Guess I will need to get some covers at least for the Ce2 since it's missing quite a few though. Hoping that's a pretty standard size. : )


Ah! Yes, I did read something about that, how the keyboard for he DO was unique to the computer itself for the 88/98 Mode switching, so when I found that model being sold with the keyboard, that's what prompted me to jump on it. : ) But I'm wondering now, if I'll need another PC-98 keyboard if the DO keyboard will work on the Ce2 keyboard port. I see now that the pin layout is a bit different for the Mouse port on the DO than it is for the circular jack pin layout on the Ce2. I think I have a MSX mouse that should work decently using that DO port, but I will need to get a round jack connector PC-98 mouse, or a converter: From old-stlye flat-rectangle pin layout to round newer-style, that would then allow me to theoretically use both the MSX mouse I already have as well as this controller adapter....maybe.. lol I wonder if such an adapter exists...


So that's what they are, I was wondering what in the world that would be... lol Would there be any reason for a user like myself to ever flip any of those dip-switches? I'm pretty sure I'd have no idea what I would be doing when it comes to that, especially since I didn't even know what it was. : )


Hmm, that sounds like it might be a bigger headache that I had originally expected, especially since I wasn't planning on importing a PC monitor. Is it possible that there are converters for this type of thing, where it converts a kHz frequency to specify an input frequency that is smaller than normal? Or is something like this impossible. I guess it wouldn't be all bad if I could find a monitor here in the United States that would support 24 kHz, but importing a monitor from Japan sounds especially challenging. Maybe if it were a flat-screen it would be alright, but the old school CRT types, I'm pretty sure those would get busted on the trip over. : 0

Thanks again for your help!

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

SCSI and HDD/CD IDE cables are completely standard (FDD cables are not!). VGA and D-sub 15-pin RGB Analog are the same thing, but I think I know what you mean. Older NEC models use a 2-row 15-pin D-sub connector called a DA-15, whereas later models use the 3-row 15-pin D-sub connector called a DE-15 (the standard VGA port on modern computers). This is the adapter you need to buy or make: http://www.sanwa.co.jp/product/syohin.asp?code=AD-D15NE

And if you can't find a 24kHz-compatible monitor, you could get an upscan converter.
See here: http://www.ad-techno.com/html/products/ ... index.html
Or here: http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/


I can't say 100%, but since the DO can accept a regular PC98 keyboard, a DO keyboard might also work on a regular PC98. It's worth a test.


Mouse adapters definitely exist - I have one in my closet. I wish I could tell you more about it, but I found it in a junk bin a long time ago and there are no logos or markings on it at all.
...Looking at it now, it seems like it's just a bus mouse connector one one side and a DE-9 connector on the other side.


Usually no, but you might need to change the dip switches if you hook up the external FDD. I can't seem to find a list of switch settings for the DO specifically, so if your machine comes with any documentation please scan it for preservation!


No problem

Very cool, so I think I'm all set with the mouse I need and I believe I found two different style PC-98 mouse adapters, just in case.

Thanks for the information about the Upscan converter and that model XRGB-3 seems like a nice piece of hardware, although it's pretty expensive it seems! I might just try to import everything first and give things a try and if I still can't find a local solution, I might have to invest in one of those units sometime. : 0

So 15 kHz = 300 x 200
And 24 kHz = 600 x 400

So theoretically, if I can get a monitor and hook it up to my current modern PC and have the ability to make of these resolutions, even lets say a custom resolution mode, then I should have no problems outputting the RGB Analog to VGA using the adapter 15 pin horizontal to 15 pin layered in rows of 5, right? Or is this crazy talk!?

Just for the heck of it, I did out one of the flat screen monitors I have HP2207H into a custom mode of 600 x 400 interlaced with 16 bit color settings (not sure about refresh rate or if that even matters here) just to see what it might do, but all it did was tell me that the current input did not support this resolution. That makes sense, but what if the input "did" support the resolution! Then this would work, I think.... maybe....haha.

I guess some of the last questions I can think of for now are, if I were to get a IDE Interface C-Bus Board, with 2 internal IDE connectors, could those be used to hook up either a harddrive or perhaps two internal FDD drives: 2 x 3.5 inch drives for example so that I could play 3.5 inch PC-8801 games on the DO? I was thinking maybe I might have to extend the power supply connectors so that it goes to both the internal 5"2 drives, but also allow for the 3.5 drives to be hooked up and maybe lead outside the case itself somehow through the back port area of the case. In theory would something like this be possible?

I guess I should ask about HDD's too, in that if should ever need to replace one, can any IDE or SCSI HDD do the trick or does it have to be formatted very specifically?

Also, I've heard before that transferring data to the HDD can be very easy to do if you have Ethernet built in, which I see they have some C-Bus boards for. Would I be able to install a LAN port on my Ce2 or even possibly the DO to make transferring files easier? And how could I get my modern PC running windows 7 64-bit be able to see it through an ethernet or crossover cable? Or would this basically just give it the ability to go Online in some capacity?

If that won't work, what are the easiest ways of transferring files to the computer such as drivers or files that need to be installed for programs such as emulators?

Please feel free to tell me if what I'm hoping to accomplish is something I'm either smoking or dreaming. : ) I'm a newbie afterall!

Thanks again,

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery

Resolution and horizontal frequency are different things. Defining a custom resolution is useless - either the monitor supports 24kHz or it doesn't.


There are no 3.5 inch PC-8801 games, maybe you meant 3.5 inch PC-9801 games? It may be possible but it's probably more trouble than it's worth. The DO is a pretty weak PC-9801 anyway, only the oldest games would run on it.

Another thing - I'm sorry but the PC-9801-55 SCSI interface might not work with the external FDD. You might need to use a special external FDD interface board instead.


For the Ce2 just get an IDE-to-CF or -SD adapter. You'll need to format the hard drive on the Ce2 using a DOS floppy. Max capacity on a Ce2 is ~540MB due to NEC's IDE implementation.
A hard drive on the DO would be rather pointless IMO.


Not on the DO. You could probably do it on the Ce2, but you would need to install Win95 and correctly configure TCP/IP and file sharing settings. Setting up file sharing between Windows 95 and Windows 7 is a lot of work.


Floppy disks or burnt CDs (for the Ce2).

I see, so I am crazy to think that by changing the resolution to a custom one would work. That XRGB is looking better and better. Seems like XRGB-2 also supports a PC-98 mode for 24 kHZ, so if I could find that model, it would be a little cheaper I think... hmm

I just can't really bring in another huge computer monitor to add to my current setup or my wife will kill me. The shear size of having both the DO and the Ce2 alone may me pushing it! lol

Actually regarding the DO and the PC-8801 games that were 3.5 inch disks, I think I may have made a mistake on that and grabbed my MSX versions of some of the software I had versions for thinking I had grabbed the box for the PC-8801 version. And because of that, I started thinking that I maybe I needed to find some method of supporting this format for PC-8801 games as well. But nope, now that I have double-checked them, all of my Falcom PC-8801 games are 5"2 inch disks, so that's a bit of a relief now knowing that I won't need to worry about this type of setup or missing out on select PC-8801 titles just because of a different size disk. ^_^;;



Hmm, really? Why do think it would not work afterall just out of curiosity? Was that type of C-Bus style SCSI board meant to support some other type of hardware or accessory? I'm curious though about this other external FDD interface board you've mentioned, do you have any examples of what these look like or any model names I could search for? Even if I can't use the SCSI board (PC-9801-55) it wasn't too much of a set back, just around 1000 yen or so I think, so it's at least worth a test drive anyway.



Ah cool! I didn't even know those existed, so then rather then using an old fashioned hard drive, you can hook up the IDE and FDD power cables to a device like this and mount it on the back of the case? That would be awesome! And super quick if I wanted to add files to it I'm guessing. Something like this right? ==> http://www.addonics.com/products/adidesd.php But then you did say it needs to be under 540 mb, and I've heard that some games won't work if the harddrive is too large, so maybe I can go with something that is like a 128 MB or something, really tiny that is just large enough to use with the Ce2.

So Ethernet isn't really something easy to setup and it if it is a lot of work for you, it'll certainly be a lot of work for me if even possible for me to figure out. I only know basic networking skills. I know how to add Mac Addresses and find IPs, to setup a home network and wireless network and that's about the extent of my knowledge. lol I think the method above using a SD card or using a CD-Rom for transferring data would be best.

You sure do know a lot about all of this Kobushi, I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to ask you all of these questions. Must have taken years of experience to learn all of this. Sometimes, I wish I could just be happy with emulators... and for a time, I was, but now after having gotten into using real MSX hardware, I know the difference now, you just can't beat playing it on the real thing! Emulators can get you close, but they just don't have the same picture and audio and feel of the original. I want to be able to experience the Ys series, Xanadu, Falcom in general and Xak the way it was intended to be experienced and not through a virtual window pane on my desktop. : )

-Thomas

_________________
XyZ - A Tribute to the Xak, Ys and Zelda Series

SkyeWelse's Backloggery